MNSBR: My Blender Won't Blend. - MNSBR

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My Blender Won't Blend. SV650 Engine Swap Woes

#1 User is offline   motochanik Icon

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Posted 03 June 2017 - 09:13 PM

Looking for a little help... I broke a timing chain on a motor and it took the teeth on the crank and oiler casting on the case out. Time for a new to me motor!

Because I had to swap over the oil cooler, and the bike was coming out of storage, I had to fill it with fluids. I did over fill the oil a bit fill the filter and oil cooler. Cranked it with the spark plugs pulled to get the system primed. I had to top it up anyway. After I swapped everything over and it started pretty soon after I remembered to plug in the throttle position sensor. It starts perfect, idles ok, but as soon as you open the throttle at all it bogs and won't rev past about 4k.

What I know:
Been through the FI wiring about 10 times making sure everything is plugged in.
Checked everything was seated for the air box and throttle bodies.
Put in new spark plugs, ran the bike with one plug pulled and it sparked all the way to 4k rpm.
Drained and new gas.
Swapped the fuel pump for a spare one.
Swapped the entire throttle body assembly for a spare one. This includes all the sensors and injectors.
On slightly not cold engine I'm getting 150psi of compression front and rear.
Battery is 12.8 volts when the engine is off, rising to 13.5 while running.
No FI light or codes.

Any thoughts or simple things I'm missing?
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#2 User is online   re tired Icon

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Posted 03 June 2017 - 09:43 PM

Throttle bodies sync'd.?.?.

Fk I don't know...

Paging J.C.
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#3 User is offline   Jim Hubert Icon

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 08:46 AM

View Postmotochanik, on 03 June 2017 - 09:13 PM, said:

...the bike was coming out of storage....


Possibly not getting enough air. Is there a mouse or insect nest in the airbox?

This can also happen on the exhaust side, but exhaust pressure will often blow it out.
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#4 User is offline   Katie Icon

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 04:28 PM

Jon says check the timing. And then call him if you need more help...
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#5 User is offline   motochanik Icon

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Posted 04 June 2017 - 08:06 PM

View PostJim Hubert, on 04 June 2017 - 08:46 AM, said:

Possibly not getting enough air. Is there a mouse or insect nest in the airbox?

This can also happen on the exhaust side, but exhaust pressure will often blow it out.



Sorry the donor motor was coming out of storage, the airbox and exhaust were on a running bike 3 weeks ago and I have had the air box apart this weekend making sure everything was seated and etc. I'll double check the exhaust.

I'll check the timing. Gotta do some research and figure out how to check the number of links from the crank to the top...
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#6 User is offline   Jim Hubert Icon

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 05:48 AM

View Postmotochanik, on 04 June 2017 - 08:06 PM, said:

I'll check the timing. Gotta do some research and figure out how to check the number of links from the crank to the top...


A typical procedure is to rotate the crank to TDC. A mark on the EX cam sprocket will align with a fixed point on the head. Then count links (pins usually) to a point on the IN cam sprocket. Details for your engine will be found in the service manual. But I'd expect a cam as far off position as you described to be accompanied by backfiring or bent valves.

Does the TPS voltage vary as you move the throttle? It should go from roughly 1 volt at idle to 4 volts at WOT. The voltage is measured between ground and the movable contact of the TPS. Just measure all three pins. One pin will be ground, another will be the +5 VDC reference, and the third should vary with throttle position.
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#7 User is offline   jesse v Icon

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 06:05 AM

I don't have much help to offer, but I can say that the Suzuki service manual explains cam timing very clearly (as opposed to most other procedures). Emailing you a google drive link to my service manual PDF now.
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#8 User is offline   motochanik Icon

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 09:43 AM

View PostJim Hubert, on 05 June 2017 - 05:48 AM, said:

A typical procedure is to rotate the crank to TDC. A mark on the EX cam sprocket will align with a fixed point on the head. Then count links (pins usually) to a point on the IN cam sprocket. Details for your engine will be found in the service manual. But I expect a cam as far off position as you describe to be accompanied by backfiring or bent valves.

Does the TPS voltage vary as you move the throttle? It should go from roughly 1 volt at idle to 4 volts at WOT. The voltage is measured between ground and the movable contact of the TPS. Just measure all three pins. One pin will be ground, another will be the +5 VDC reference, and the third should vary with throttle position.


I'll check the TPS voltage tonight and timing tonight...

View Postjesse v, on 05 June 2017 - 06:05 AM, said:

I don't have much help to offer, but I can say that the Suzuki service manual explains cam timing very clearly (as opposed to most other procedures). Emailing you a google drive link to my service manual PDF now.
Thanks Jesse, that is a much better than the manual I have!
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#9 User is offline   Beckett Icon

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 10:41 AM

View Postmotochanik, on 05 June 2017 - 09:43 AM, said:

I'll check the TPS voltage tonight and timing tonight...


I expect that TPS report on my desk tomorrow morning.



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#10 User is offline   Champ Icon

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 12:36 PM

Let me know if you have any questions - there isn't much electronics wise that would otherwise limit you to around 4,000 rpm.

If you can't get it going I'll bring another known good motor to the track for you to use.
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#11 User is offline   motochanik Icon

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 06:33 PM

Well, Jim and Jesse were on to something. The TPS wasn't adjusted properly and the suzuki manual from Jesse got that straight after a bit of fiddling. I now have 7.5k rpms, and popping in the exhaust. I'm left with a suspicion that Champ might be right...

There are 20 teeth on the cam for the top to be off a tooth would mean the valves are 20 degrees off aka metal bits touching I assume. But if the bottom end is off a tooth it is only off 10 degrees. But the timing gears on the crank are buried behind the magneto and clutch so I can't count links from the crank to the non-tensionor side cam. Assuming the timing between the cams is right when I check, is my only option to just reset the timing to check/fix the bottom end?
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#12 User is offline   Champ Icon

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 06:59 PM

Do you have a power commander or anything?

Call me when you get in there and I'll walk you through it - any timing changes are done at the top, bottom end is irrelevant
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#13 User is offline   Champ Icon

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 08:31 AM

View Postmotochanik, on 05 June 2017 - 06:33 PM, said:

There are 20 teeth on the cam for the top to be off a tooth would mean the valves are 20 degrees off aka metal bits touching I assume.

They could be off in the other direction and the motor will still run. Think of the exhaust cams open early - they'd close early before the piston comes up.
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#14 User is offline   motochanik Icon

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 11:18 AM

View PostChamp, on 05 June 2017 - 06:59 PM, said:

Do you have a power commander or anything?

Call me when you get in there and I'll walk you through it - any timing changes are done at the top, bottom end is irrelevant


I have a power commander 3 (and power commander 5 for the 07-08 from another sv). I had thought about swapping them to double check the ecu is good but they have different harnesses and I assume different pixie driven devices.

I won't be able to get to the valves till Thursday. Why is the bottom end irrelevant? Shouldn't there be a set number of links from the crank to the cam on the non-tensionor side? We just don't count them because when you set that first cam you rely on the timing mark on the clutch and cams to get the correct number of links, then set the number of links between cams and then the tensioner takes the slack?

Also thanks for the offer of the motor. But if I can't get this one running for the weekend, I'm just going to try for July. I have sunk too much time into this already...
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#15 User is offline   Foss Icon

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Posted 06 June 2017 - 11:50 AM

View Postmotochanik, on 06 June 2017 - 11:18 AM, said:

I have a power commander 3 (and power commander 5 for the 07-08 from another sv). I had thought about swapping them to double check the ecu is good but they have different harnesses and I assume different pixie driven devices.

I would definitely pull the power commander out of the equation and try it with the stock harness back in place.
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